Rock Star To Homicide Prosecutor

A touring rock musician cuts his hair, puts on a suit, and walks into a Chicago courtroom, then ends up trying murder cases when the city is at a boiling point. That’s the real-life origin story of our guest, Greg Owen, a former Cook County prosecutor who went from sharing stages with legendary acts to learning homicide trials inside a system battling both violence and corruption.

We talk through the pivot that changed Greg’s life overnight, what it takes to survive early courtroom work with almost no time to prepare, and how corruption can quietly tilt outcomes through the “right” judge, the “right” lawyer, and evidence that disappears at the worst possible moment. Greg then takes us inside the double murder case that stayed with him for decades, the one that became his book Convergence with Jonathan Dixon, and explains why the prosecution point of view is so rarely told and so revealing.

From there, the stakes escalate into gang prosecutions, contract killings, and the kind of danger most people never imagine comes with the job, including a documented plot involving a stolen surface-to-air missile. We close with Greg’s practical breakdown of insanity defenses, why “the devil made me do it” doesn’t land with juries, and how the Lindsay Clancy trial shows the power and the pitfalls of expert testimony in modern criminal court.

If you like true crime, courtroom strategy, and the human side of prosecution, subscribe, share this with a friend, and leave a review so more listeners can find us.

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hello everyone. Welcome back tonight to Strange Strange Can Insane. And this is your host, Melissa. And tonight, again, I have a very special, interesting, already fun. Um I've already picked his brain a little bit, but I'm gonna let him c jump on here and introduce himself and tell you guys a about him. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 0:21

Hi, my name is Greg Owen. Thank you for Melissa for having me. I'm really looking forward to this.

SPEAKER_02 0:26

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 0:26

I um was a prosecutor in Chicago, Cook County, Illinois for about nine years. Before that, I was a touring rock musician. I played again about nine, ten years on tour from high school all the way through law school. I never stopped playing. And then I had a monumental change in my life, a transformation, I guess you'd say. And I decided that I had to change my life. And I took a job as an intern for the prosecutor's office. And a year later, after I had passed the bar exam, they hired me and I started as a prosecutor. And shortly thereafter I was sent to 26 of California, which is the large criminal court building in Chicago at a time when the murder rate was the highest it ever was, and the corruption was the worst it ever was. So I sort of was baptized as a lawyer in both homicide and corruption. So it was a it was a really interesting growing up period. I got in the office when I was twenty six and left when I was thirty-four.

SPEAKER_02 1:23

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 1:24

So yeah, I you know, I I lived the sort of a a different kind of life at that point.

SPEAKER_00 1:30

Yeah, it kind of so you went from like rock star to prosecutor. I mean, that's like two way different lives already.

SPEAKER_01 1:38

Yeah, it's 180, 180 degree turn.

From Touring Musician To Law Student

SPEAKER_01 1:41

Absolutely. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 1:42

Wow, I love this.

SPEAKER_01 1:44

Yeah, and and I w did well as a musician. I was, you know, I played in Bantonette Records and was on three or four four different big time, you know, Columbia, Warner Brothers, AM, and uh Atlantic. So I mean, I was I wasn't just a kid in the garage. I mean, and something happened and I just had to make a decision. And I decided that I was gonna leave the band, become an intern, cut my hair, my hair was on my shoulders with braids and you name it. Cut my hair one night, my mother took me to get a suit, and the next day I was excuse me, excuse me. I'm sorry. I was in the courtroom. I was in a courtroom, and I the courtroom I came was designed to as an intern. It was one of the busiest courtrooms in the Chicago misdemeanor courts. And I when I walked in, I felt like I was in a spaceship, but I got dropped into a foreign planet because it was so different than anything I ever imagined.

SPEAKER_02 2:36

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 2:37

It was a shock. But every two weeks of working there as an intern, I loved it. I mean, I I d knew this was my calling at that point in my life, so I got into it. I really enjoyed it. I spent six months as an intern, took the bar exam, passed, and then uh was hired.

SPEAKER_00 2:52

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 2:54

Yeah, it was a it was a uh m made you know, it's funny though. When you're in the midst of it, you don't think it's that unusual until you look back on your life and you realize what was I thinking?

SPEAKER_00 3:06

You know, now you did you worked with like Janice Joplin, right?

SPEAKER_01 3:11

Yeah, uh doors. I opened up for The Cream, uh Buffalo Springfield, which is Steven Stills and uh Neil Young. Nice and many others. I mean, uh we we toured just about all the time. I was in a band called the American Breed. In the six late sixties, uh band had a song called Benny Shaby, which was pretty big at the time. Not that anybody's heard of it now, but it was. And and like I say, I I had no intention of being a lawyer. I I went to law school only because I wasn't gonna get drafted. There was a lottery, my number was high, and somebody in the band suggested, you know, we've been taking advantage of screwed by so many managers and lawyers. You went to college, why don't you go to get some law classes? And I thought that was crazy. But I two weeks later or three weeks, whatever it was, I did. And I I sent uh registration information, and I was accepted by three or four law schools, and I picked one out and I started. And I took I only went every other semester. I asked the dean, I said, you know, I'm in a band, he looked at me and goes, pretty obvious. And most of the people in my law school, the guys were wearing suits and ties and real short hair, and there's me, patches on my pants, platform shoes, you know, the whole bit. I was full rock and roll earring. So I said to him, you know, we don't tour as much from January to end of May, but we tour a lot the rest of the year. So I'd like to only go every other semester, and for some reason he said, Okay, we'll try it. And that's what I did. So it took me four and a half years. So with a semester when I was in school, we would play within 90 miles of Chicago, you know, so I could get back going to school. And then the rest of the time I was on tour.

SPEAKER_00 4:44

Going to the States. Wow, that's incredible. Like you're so dedicated, very hardworking.

SPEAKER_01 4:51

Yeah, I mean, I like I said, I never really thought I'd ever be a real lawyer. I thought I'd take the classes and graduate. And then, like I say, with the my senior year, my last semester, uh, something just hit me and I uh replied to a an actually I showed up. There was a bulletin board in my law school, a big one with a lot of job opportunities in those days. But this one four by six index card said, Cook County State's attorney's office will be in room 204. I know it would have been the next day. It was not a Thursday, this was a Wednesday afternoon, and it said, seeking law interns to be possible with assistant states' attorneys. I didn't even know what most of it meant, but something inside me said, You better do that. Jim said it a couple times. So I called my mother, she got things from friend of hers to cut my hair, and she took me to get a suit, and then I showed up and I started and I never looked back.

SPEAKER_02 5:39

Wow. That was it.

unknown 5:41

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 5:42

Yeah, my friends thought I was crazy too. My mother thought I was crazy when I called her, I said, Did you have your guy cut my hair? My mother goes, What's wrong with you? What's wrong with you? Because I'd been a musician for so long, she couldn't even imagine me saying that, and just out of nowhere. I there was no lead up to this. It just happened. It just I mean it was literally, you know, people say something changed overnight. It literally changed overnight for me. And why? I can't say, but something pushed me and said, This is what you better do, and I'm telling you, uh it was the best thing that ever happened, and I didn't plan any of it, so Wow.

SPEAKER_00 6:16

That was your calling.

SPEAKER_01 6:18

I guess because I I I loved every day, but I worked in that office as a price here. I look forward to work every single day. I mean, as hard as it was, we worked long hours but I didn't care. I mean, I thought I was doing a service to my community and um I believed in what I was doing at the time too.

SPEAKER_02 6:35

So Wow.

Learning Trials In A Corrupt System

SPEAKER_01 6:38

Yep. I tried a lot of cases as a young person too. I mean, the experience, the the level of crime was so ridiculous that I was assigned to different courtrooms at different times, and all we tried is murder cases. We couldn't try a burglary or a robbery. There wasn't there was we were too busy. We'd have to plead those out because the murder cases didn't stay priority. I mean, I tried forty-one murder trials by November of nineteen seventy-nine and I started in seventy-six. Wow. So that means yeah, less than four years. I mean, it was every month. I mean, you were on trial constantly. It never ended. You learned. I mean, I started at twenty-six by thirty, like I said, I had already tried forty one murder jury trials, but because the level of violence was so bad, coupled with the corruption, so I had to learn how to try a case in front of a jury, but also how to deal with corruption, which was all around us. It was ridiculous, you know. It was just absurd.

SPEAKER_00 7:33

Now are you still in Chicago?

SPEAKER_01 7:35

Yes, yes, I am. I I've lived on I mean, I lived in LA for a while, you know, through the course of my life, I lived in some out of Colorado, Arizona. But I'm basically based in Chicago, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:45

Okay. Nice.

SPEAKER_01 7:48

Yeah, it's uh I mean it's it's what I call home. I'm used to it. I know what to expect, you know, and I know where to go and where not to go. So for me it works. I mean, I don't like the weather in the winter, but you know, I'm used to it now. Over all these years.

SPEAKER_00 8:04

Yeah, we've been uh over in the Chicago area a couple of times, a few times for you know paranormal stuff. Uh-huh. And uh it's interest it's an interesting place, you know, not too far from Michigan. Well it depends where you're going.

SPEAKER_01 8:17

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's it's it's well, that's why it became such a big city is because of where it's located. It's like in the center almost, you know. Yes. And it's next to a huge lake. So, you know, that they trade came in the years ago. I mean, that's what built the city up. Um but I mean, one of the the the the sad things about Chicago is the city became infamous because of Al Capone, I think. I mean, and that that was the beginning of corruption from one end of the island. That whole Al Capone era, the twenties and thirties, judges became corrupt, police were corrupt. I mean, it just really didn't end until this major investigation took place called Operation Greylord in the early early the mid eighties, and uh that's that stopped it for the most part. But when I started, it was everywhere. I mean, you know when cops were taking money, the judge was taking money. It was just ridiculous.

SPEAKER_00 9:12

So what is we all do it?

SPEAKER_01 9:13

Well, what can you do about it? I mean, we don't see anybody handing somebody money, but we can tell, you know, who the cool crooked lawyers are or the crooked judges.

SPEAKER_00 9:21

Oh, I'm sure. You've been doing it long enough.

SPEAKER_01 9:24

Yeah, and and you know, I was pretty young. I mean, I was like I said, it was uh it was a shock, you know. When I go to law school and I'm in a band, I don't know what's gonna happen. Then you walk into clubs and you can tell the same lawyers were always winning, and they weren't good lawyers. And yet, how did they keep winning all the time? I mean, I tried a lot of cases before I actually became licensed because Illinois had a special rule called Rule 7 Eleven, which said if you're a senior law student and you have good grades and you're you know you're uh sponsored by a governmental agency, this was the state attorney's office, you can try cases before you're licensed. So I tried in the misdemeanor court almost 300 cases.

SPEAKER_02 10:04

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 10:04

Because it again, it was because there was two regular lawyers in that meet. But there was so many cases it was these were like traplifting, you know, aggravated that no aggravated assault like somebody pointed a gun or theft. I mean that not just theft, but there was like battery people fighting or you know, having a gun. And it was just it was crazy. I mean, I what you do is you learn how to think on your feet because you have no time to prepare. They're calling case after case, and you got maybe 35 to 40 seconds at mo at most to talk to the witness, whoever it may be, or the police officer, and then you gotta put it on right now, right now.

SPEAKER_02 10:43

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 10:44

So it was um it was it was a true lesson for a young person in life, and then like I say, that really did prepare me though to go into the felony courts because you had to think quick. And when you're in a felony courtroom, your body has to think quick, too. You don't have to react the same as those for you don't have to have more than 30 seconds, but things happen, and you have to be ready to answer whatever the issue is quickly, and you know, it's something you're trained to do, and the better you are at it, the better you are at the more successful you're gonna be as a trial lawyer. So it w it was a it was a good learning ground for me at the beginning. So I mean, I'm appreciative that I got the opportunity.

SPEAKER_00 11:23

Yeah, of course. Absolutely. More experience, the better.

SPEAKER_01 11:26

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

The Double Murder That Would Not Die

SPEAKER_00 11:28

So, what is the case that still haunts you today?

SPEAKER_01 11:33

Well, as far as haunts me, the case that has stayed with me all of these years is the case which is featured in my first book, Convergence, my book with Jonathan Dixon and actual writer, I'm the storyteller. And it's a case of a double murder of a young man and a young woman. They were twenty-four and twenty-two uh respectively, by the friend who was also twenty-four. Now, all these people were wealthy, I mean, really wealthy. And during the course of one of the murders, there was an eyewitness there who ran out out of fear. And he was rich too. And it was sort of like a sort of a minor drug transaction was taking place. It just got out of control. And so as a result, the male victim who was his name was Gio, he he was stabbed to death as was his girlfriend. We called her Tinker, that was her nickname. Uh Mary Gray. Anyway, so um the the eyewitness, I mean, he was terrified. I mean, he went he went to his hotel where his girlfriend was working. He called the police, and the police thought it was a prank, and they didn't send anybody to this apartment. He told him right where it was, and the police officer threw the his message in the garbage. And so it wasn't until two days later that his father finds him because he worked with his dad, and it was unlike him to not call in. So the father got so concerned he didn't know what to do, he couldn't find him, and there was no cell phones in those days. So he drove down to this uh in Chicago with his girlfriend at a nice apartment in a nice area, and he got the janitor and opened the door, and when he walked in, he found his son in the bathroom stabbed to death, and the girl was in the floor stabbed to death. And they've been dead for about a day and a half almost two days. And it was unusual because as that man was riding his son and that girl, that young woman, I was taking the bar exam. And I got done with the bar exam that day, and the next day I was gonna fly to Los Angeles, well, I did fly to Los Angeles to be with my old band, because it takes two months to get your results, so I figured, well, I'm gonna hang with them for a while. So I was got home for the bar exam and I got a phone call from my brother. His name was Jay, and he said, I said, Jay, what's up, man? He goes, Man, I'm so bummed out. I go, What's wrong? What's wrong? He goes, My friend and his girlfriend got killed. And what was unusual about that is I was going into my apartment. I saw the evening edition of the newspaper being put in a box, and the headline said contractor, clever actress Valent Slayton. And a story at the site. I didn't have any change, so I didn't get the paper, but I noticed it. So he's telling me about this. I go, where did this happen? He goes, not too far from where you live. I go, wait a second. Was your friend a contractor? Was dad is the big contractor? Was this girlfriend an actress? Yeah. I said, I just saw the headline, man. So the the male victim that who I had never met in my life, didn't know who he was, was a friend of my brother's. That was pretty unusual. And then four years later, I'd be the prosecutor of that very case.

SPEAKER_00 14:34

Wow.

unknown 14:35

I mean, the thing, I wasn't even a lawyer when it took place.

SPEAKER_01 14:38

And and the part of the story is why did it take four years to get it to go to trial? And why was the defendant on a double murder after he was arrested given a bond?

unknown 14:50

I'd never heard of anybody getting getting bonded on a double murder.

SPEAKER_01 14:55

And the case got transferred to a court facility where murder cases were never, ever, ever sent to a judge who, by coincidence, was a close friend of his defense attorney. So, I mean, how these things took place. I mean, how why some judge gave him a bond, why the case got sent to someplace it never should have been, and to a judge who was good friends with the defense attorney, the main defense attorney. And it sat lingering in this courtroom because the eyewitness, after this all happened, he told the police, and then later he got cold beat and said he was going to take the fifth if he was called to testify. So they have a case that just keeps getting continued, and they can't convince this guy to testify. And they had really no case. There was some evidence seized in the defendant's home by the police on a search warrant. It was pretty important. But when that evidence was seized, the defense attorney filed a motion in front of that judge that he knew that the judge should grant him exclude all the evidence because it was obtained in a search warrant that the judge, the other some other judge should have granted. And the judge in that court said, yes, the state cannot use that evidence. So it takes another year for it to go to the appellate court. The appellate court reverses that judge and said, Yes, they can use evidence. Well, lo and behold, between that time, when that evidence was supposed to be put in a back in the evidence locker, it all disappeared except for one I know.

SPEAKER_00 16:18

Someone got paid off.

SPEAKER_01 16:20

I mean, yeah, I mean, everybody was being paid off. I mean, then we lost the evidence. There was a there was a guy taking the fifth. So it was almost four years that my brother called me and talked to him between times, but he called me one particular day at my office in 26th of California. And he said, Greg, did you find out something for me? I should be what's up. He says, I says, you know, my friend, they got murdered. I go, I don't, eh, maybe. Yeah, I think, yeah, I remember now, and he said, Well, your office called the family of my friend and said they're going to have to dismiss the case. I go, that's insane. They don't dismiss, we don't dismiss double murders. He goes, that's what they're told. He said, could you just find out what's going on? I said, sure. So I looked at my building where all the murder cases were and it wasn't there. And then I found that I'd been transferred to this court facility, which never had murder cases. So I got my car, drove downtown, went to that court building, went up the ask up the elevator to the eighth floor where the state's attorneys had some courtrooms, but they were like for felony shoplifting or, you know, nothing serious. Small drugs or something gambling. But for some reason, this case was in that one of these courtrooms. I saw a prosecutor I knew, and I said, Hey, Sandy. I said, uh, I'm looking for this case. He goes, which case? I told him the name. He goes, Greg, I'm gonna do you a favor. Don't touch that case with it. I wouldn't touch that case he said with a dead foot pole. It's poison. I go, what are you talking about? He goes, We got nothing, man. And we're gonna have to dismiss it because it's gonna go to trial. We have no evidence, we have no witness. I said, Are you serious? He goes, Yeah. So I said, Well, let me see the file. So he goes through all the file campus thinking we can't find it. Finally, he goes down on his hands and knees, he finds it under somebody's desk. I mean, literally. He takes it up and he hands it to me. He says, Good luck. I open the file, and it's a mess, first of all. That's totally disorganized, stuff that's been done. But I see a picture of this killer. Rich, comes from a provident family, I mean, big money, lives in a beautiful place on the lake. And I just thought to myself, you know, this corruption, this has got to stop. I mean, this guy thinks he's gonna buy his way out of a double murder of his friends. So I called my partner, Mike. I said, Mike, this, I got this case that I think I'm gonna take, and I need you to try it with me. I said, We're probably gonna lose. But it it just it makes me sick that nobody's gonna get justice. The victims are never gonna get their voices heard. And he agreed, and we were able to get that case transferred out of that courtroom back to where it belonged. And then the job really began. That was where it got tough. To convince witnesses to testify who didn't want to, who wanted immunity, and we could give immunity, and that that we found a probably the most pivotal witness in the whole case, who was a drug smuggler who was in jail in eastern Tennessee. He had flown a DC six four-engine airliner with seven tons of pot and a hundred pounds of cocaine. He had a problem with the plane, he crashed in a field. And he was he became probably the second most important witness that we didn't even know he existed two months before trial. So, I mean, the book talks about all these things that converged. How I ended up trying a case four years old that my brother knew that he had told me about four years ago. I didn't know anything about it. And then how we find this witness, and when he did it, like the I the eyewitness, he was he told me point blank, I'll stop testifying. I met with him like three times, and finally one day I said, Listen, why don't we just go out? I could tell the guy sort of liked me. You know, we were the same age, you know. And so we went, we met him at this club he belonged to in Chicago. About 11 o'clock at night, and he says, um, we sit down in a booth. And I didn't like the guy that much, but you know, you have to try. So he said to me, by the way, he says, You don't seem like a prosecutor. How did you end up doing this? I go, well, it's a long story. He goes, Well, we got all night. You know, we got all night. I say to him, Well, I was in a band. He goes, You were in a what?

SPEAKER_02 20:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:16

I was in a band. And the guy goes, What band? I tell him the name, he goes, Oh my god, I've seen you fifty times. Because we played a lot. We were well known in the area for sure, in Midwest.

SPEAKER_00 20:26

Now, did you play an in an instrument? Like, were you a guitarist?

SPEAKER_01 20:29

I was a keyboard player. Keyboard player. Yeah. Oh. My mother made me take piano lessons when I was young. So it ended up working out for me. Then I could play, you know, piano or synthesizer name. So because he all of a sudden his attitude changed because he felt I wasn't just some straight-lace kind of prosecutor who would burn him. Because there was a drug deal that went down, not a big one, and he was there. So he felt if he testified and had to tell say what really happened, we he could charge with drug possession or being part of this whole murder. So because I was a musician, he felt I wasn't so straight that I I couldn't understand it. I told him that I have no intention of prosecuting you. We won't. That's the last thing we're going to do. And he literally changed his tone and agreed to testify. And I thought that was pretty unusual. I'd never thought in a million years that being a musician would ever be what it took to convince a bad witness to testify in a murder case. But he did. So like I said, the book is just full of. And the other thing is the story is told from the prosecution's point of view, not a defense attorney, not a defendant, not a police officer, not somebody that just knows but two crime cases. But it really gives you an insight as to what prosecutors are really doing, how they go about getting these cases put together, how they prepare, you know, the whole thing. I mean, it it's not very well documented most of the time. You don't see many books written with that point of view.

SPEAKER_00 21:55

What what book is this? This is your book, correct?

SPEAKER_01 21:58

Yeah, it's called Convergence. Yes, Convergence.

SPEAKER_00 22:00

Okay. Convergence. Convergence.

SPEAKER_01 22:03

Well, that's the point. See, everything converged at a certain moment. It was just so pivotal. It's pivotal. And so many people's lives. I mean, it changed a lot of people. A lot of things happened. I mean, the case when it first occurred was the headlines of every paper in Chicago for three days straight. Every four days actually. And so it was such a big case at the time. But then it's like people lose interest. Once he was on bond, the toxicology report came back six weeks after the murder, and the victims had drugs in their system. And back in those days, people thought, well, if you were doing drugs, you deserve what you got.

unknown 22:35

I mean, it was really sick culture.

SPEAKER_00 22:37

Right, right.

unknown 22:38

So much more prejudice, you know. And I was from a band.

SPEAKER_01 22:42

I didn't couldn't I didn't think that way at all. I mean, I didn't I didn't I was in that environment. So it was it was just like I said, because the fact that I wasn't a band, so I didn't think that way. And it and everybody else pretty much did, you know.

SPEAKER_00 22:54

It was such a crazy story about your life. I like am really enjoying this. Thank you. I mean, rock starred and prosecutor, and this guy trusted you enough to wow, that's it's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 23:09

I'm not making you can't make this up. I mean, when people read about this drug smuggler, you can't you could not make it up. I mean, how we found him, what he said, how we were able to get him to come to Chicago. I mean, he was a little he was going to get a life sentence in Tennessee.

unknown 23:27

And he happened to be black, so that made things even worse for him in 1980.

SPEAKER_00 23:30

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:31

Late late 79, early. Yeah, because he's a pilot. He flew in Vietnam, you know, he flew a jet. He won a high distinguished flying cross or something like that. A big honor. And yet when he got out, like in 72, he went to the airlines and they weren't hiring black guys in those days, man. He just couldn't do a good job. So he turned to drug smuggling.

SPEAKER_00 23:51

Oh, that's sad. Sad. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:53

That's sad. Yeah, the whole thing is sad.

SPEAKER_00 23:57

So now what is the most heinous crime um from a woman?

Gang Prosecutions And Kings Of Killing

SPEAKER_00 24:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:05

Um I would say it's actually gonna be the subject of our next book, which will be out in February, called Pursuing Kings. And it's a gang gang case. We're probably the most violent gang, maybe in the country ever, called the Royal Family. That's how much they thought of themselves. They called themselves the Royal Family. And the newspapers called them the Kings of Killing. So that's why our book is called Pursuing Kings. So my first major gang case, I became appointed the chief of gang prosecutions, was this case. They had killed the police at a minimum of a hundred people. They had been hired by the mob in Chicago to do contract killings throughout the country. I mean, they were killing people all over the place. And they they in this particular incident, they took three rival drug dealers and they took them and they put them in the car, tied them up, and then took saw-off shotguns and just blasted them in the backseat, just blew almost the guy's head almost off. And then after that, six weeks later, they go to Arizona on a contract hit and they murder a man, his mother-in-law, and they tried to kill the whole family, but they made a mistake. They shot the mother, this woman, uh, they shot her twice, shot the husband twice, but the the wife, the younger wife, Marilyn Redmond, they had a five-shot revolver. This guy, and he shot her once, and he shot her in the back of the head, but he didn't aim high enough, so the bullet came in her mouth. She was unconscious. They left 15 minutes later. She comes too because she's starting to drown on her blood. So she has the wherewithal to push the tape which is taped around her head with a sock. She gets the blood out of her throat and her out of her mouth, and she rolls, she's hawk dice. She rolls herself off the bed onto the hallway, and it was New Year's Eve, about 9 o'clock, and at that point they were having a New Year's Eve get together with their friends. So the friends were at the house pounding at a door, and nobody was answering, and the lights were on, and they happened to see her laying in the hallway. So they broke through the door and they saved her. And the police recalled, she survived, and she was able to identify the killers because they didn't wear masks, you know.

unknown 26:13

Oh my.

SPEAKER_00 26:14

So that was pretty heinous.

unknown 26:15

That's pretty okay.

SPEAKER_01 26:16

I ended up involved in a case in where it was a Phoenix in Arizona and the cool case we had in Chicago.

unknown 26:22

Wow. Yeah. I was like 30, 31 years old.

SPEAKER_01 26:26

I think back now, and I think I was pretty young to be involved in this stuff, be the chief of gang prosecutions, but like I said, in the midst of it all, you don't think that way. You know, it's just like being a soldier, I guess. You just do it because that's what you're told you're supposed to do.

SPEAKER_00 26:40

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 26:42

Yeah.

When Gangs Put A Price On You

SPEAKER_00 26:43

Now, how did that affect you being a father? Because you have daughters too, right?

SPEAKER_01 26:48

You said one daughter and one son, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:50

Okay. So did now being a prosecutor, did the were you scared a lot, like having kids?

SPEAKER_01 26:57

Well, my my my I I I got married a little older, so I had a son uh born right at the time I was a new gang chief, prosecutor, and um uh an incident occurred where I prosecuted the the gang leader of the probably the most violent, one of the most violent gangs in Chicago at that time, Spanish Cobras. And he was very upset. He was part of the cartel that were, you know, bringing drugs from Mexico into Chicago. And because we convicted him of a murder, which was outrageous, he put a contract on me. And one of his gang members was a member of the Army Reserve, believe it or not, and he was trained in using a surface-to-air missile uh launcher weapon. So they went and broke into a railroad car where the uh Army Reserve was, and they took this missile, and they were gonna blow up my house, kill me, kill my wife, kill my son. And this what happened was with this gang leader after we convicted him, he was in the hospital because he had been shot in the stomach, so he had launcher problems himself. And he was in his bed, and they were letting his gang members come right in to visit him right there. There was a man who was convicted of armed robbery who also had a problem, and he was laying in the bed next to him, and he overheard the conversation where he told these guys, get that we get that service to get that missile, and if you don't kill him, kill his wife and baby. And the armed robber, who wasn't a friend of the prosecution, he actually said in court, he said, Well, I didn't care that much about the prosecutor, but that ain't right killing his wife and baby. So they actually he actually notified the authorities in the jail that they were putting a contract on me.

SPEAKER_00 28:33

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 28:34

I had my friend my wife at the time, my son had to move out of state for six months. I had to live with the police, and they recovered that missile. They actually had it. They were gonna really that was for sure they were gonna do it. So that got a little little tense. I I never realized, you know, when you're uh going after big gangs, I never didn't request my mind that they might try to kill you. I mean, I just thought that was crazy. But it wasn't. That was one of three that I dealt with from contracts on me.

SPEAKER_00 29:03

Holy shit.

unknown 29:05

Yeah, it was it was pretty intense, I gotta say.

SPEAKER_01 29:07

Yeah, I mean, and like I say, when you're in the midst of it, you don't think that much, but then I started I had to think about my family, right? So probably a year and a half later, I mean, after a third contract on me, I said, Well, maybe I should go do something else. It was, you know, because nobody was set up. I mean, uh the the law enforcement, I mean, what are you gonna do? I mean, and I couldn't stand little with you know, in a hotel room with the police outside my doors. I mean, it just drove me crazy. I mean, but it was continuous. I mean, if it wasn't one gang, it was the other. And see, at that time, the state's attorney was a guy named Richard Daly, who ultimately became the mayor. Well, part of his campaign when he became the state's attorney, the lead prosecutor, was that he would declare war on gangs. So I'm all of a sudden I'm appointed to be the chief of this war on gangs, and I and they took it serious. They really thought it was war. And so they were uh they were not above trying to take me out. Wow. Yeah, it was but it's like it's like you know, you hear about prosecutors in Mexico who go after Cartoon and they get killed. It was these people didn't realize you don't do that in America. They thought they should. Wow, they tried, so yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:16

Wow, that's that's wild.

SPEAKER_01 30:18

Yeah, well that's I mean, there was our newspaper article stories written about this contract and people testify to it. So it's all documented. It really happened, and uh and I I know that that that made me a little nervous for them. Myself, uh, but no, I didn't I don't want to see somebody else get, you know, hurt because of my occupation at that time.

SPEAKER_00 30:40

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 30:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:42

That's wild. Now,

Demonic Possession And Insanity Defenses

SPEAKER_00 30:43

how do you I don't know if you've um come across it, the case the devil made me do it?

SPEAKER_02 30:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:50

What do you think about that?

SPEAKER_01 30:52

You think that's was that was that John Cacy or who are you talking about?

SPEAKER_00 30:56

No, that's the one they made a movie out of it.

SPEAKER_01 30:59

Um what was the case? I'm trying to think.

SPEAKER_00 31:01

Was it the no, not the smir or the hold on, let me Well, they must have had a did they have an insanity defense for the case? Yeah, like the guy was like um possessed or something.

SPEAKER_01 31:14

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I I remember, I mean, I tried insanity cases both as a prosecutor and as a defense lawyer. I became a defense attorney for a while. And so I'm quite familiar with those types of defenses, you know. You know, the devil made me do it. That's what my daughter used to say when she get in trouble. Well, Danny, the devil made me do it. I know, Kristen, that's not what happened.

SPEAKER_00 31:35

You're like, I know you too much. Yeah, so the it there so the devil made me do it case refers to the 1981 trial of 19-year-old um Arnie Cheyenne Johnson in Brookfield, Connecticut. Johnson killed his landlord, Alan Bono, by stabbing him multiple times. During the high-profile legal proceedings, his defense team attempted to argue demonic possession to deny personal responsibility.

SPEAKER_01 32:03

Yeah, I mean, juries don't buy into that.

SPEAKER_00 32:06

I mean, they just don't.

unknown 32:07

I mean, and they don't.

Breaking Down The Lindsay Clancy Trial

SPEAKER_01 32:08

I mean, it's it's like, okay, what you know, and yet right now, we're in the midst of streamed on TV is this trial of this woman, Lindsay Clancy.

SPEAKER_00 32:18

This trial is driving me absolutely bonkers because it's to me, it's kind of like ass backwards, and it's it's kind of like, all right, so like, where is it going? You know what I mean? Like, where i I just feel like it's kind of um what's the word? It's just too stagnant for me. And there's just too much too many angles, and I'm just like, what is going on?

SPEAKER_01 32:39

And you've got a lot more psychiatrists to hear from, let me tell you. This is gonna go on a long time. Oh, God. I mean a lot No, I mean it it's it's because the whole case is built on, you know, expert testimony, which can get very old and very boring, but it it's what's at stake, you know. I mean, i i it the defense attorney is attacking basically the uh the medical community that deals with mental illness as if you know they were negligent and didn't become over-prescribed and stuff like that. So, I mean, there's two different ways to look at this. Um, and I've uh on my Instagram account, I've given a like a one and a half minute what I would say if I was a prosecutor, and a one and a half minute what I would say is a defense attorney, and also discuss with people why the psychiatrist that first testified for the prosecution didn't do a very good job and how they didn't prepare her well. So, I mean, there's a lot going on. There is there's more and more people to testify. I mean, this if I was in that courtroom and I could see the jury, I could probably get a read on where they're going. Because you can tell sometimes, if you see a juror there, you can see how they react to certain things. I mean, it's a horrific crime. But but by their reactions, see, and in the the tough point is in Massachusetts, you know, the state has to prove, first of all, she committed the crimes, but then they also have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that she, you know, had the substanti had the ability to know what she was doing was wrong. The mental ability, substantial capacity to appreciate. And she and that you can also conform her contact to the requirements of law. So in some states, the state, you know, the defendant has to put on their case almost first. You say you're insane, now you've got to show us you're insane, and then the state rebuts it. Not there. It's it's a little different. And um, and it's you know, I I don't know. I I can't even I even be able to make a decision myself until I hear from a witness. I mean, of course, your initial reaction is, oh my god, how could she do this? And that's the problem, because as a human being who's had kids, how do you how do you reconcile in your mind that a mother would strangle her father three kids to death? I mean, it's almost like, well, she's gotta be crazy, right? But that's not the standard. It's not whether you have mental ailments, it's whether or not you knew what you were doing was wrong. See? Or did you have an episode? And see, some people in insanity cases, it's like they call it temporary insanity. Like for five minutes, well, that doesn't usually fly in front of juries. But but this is different because this woman was consistently getting mental health treatment. I don't know. I mean, I really don't at this point have an opinion because I haven't heard enough.

SPEAKER_00 35:18

So that's how I feel. At first I thought it was premeditated, but now see social media ruins a lot of these trials because everybody is looking at the ex-husband and saying that like they think he did it. But you know, my husband, him and I go back and forth, and he's so sick of hearing me talk about it, but he's like, Well, at the end of the day, she killed three kids. And I'm like, Yeah, she did, but there's all these other angles, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 35:45

Well, and it's tough for a juror to let somebody go that murder some people, you know. That's a tough basically, I mean, he didn't do it. That's ridiculous, and I'll tell you why. She would have said he did it, okay? I mean, she talked. I mean, it wasn't like she never said anything. I mean, she was capable of talking. I mean, she would have that laid in that hospital bed and said nothing. Of course, think about yourself. If you're you're being charged and you know you didn't do it, aren't you gonna say something when you put on the person that did it? So, you know, I I mean, and not only that, the police in a case like this, they would investigate everybody so deeply. So if there was one scintillo of evidence that they found besides conjecture and guessing, they would have charged the guy. I mean, they they have they have no rules to charge her and not him. Why would they do that? I mean, they don't know him.

SPEAKER_00 36:33

Well, his brother is like the sheriff or something, right?

SPEAKER_01 36:39

I don't no no that I don't know that, so maybe that's another thing.

SPEAKER_00 36:42

Yeah, so his family's like knees deep in this. So her his mom was like head of the L and B unit or something, and it's it's really weird how it's unraveling because it now it's like that's funny.

SPEAKER_01 36:55

Yeah, his mother was a laborer delivery, and so was she.

SPEAKER_00 36:58

But his mom's the one who directed her to the first psychiatrist, or it's like but like as it unfolds, like then the brothers or the dad was the main police chief, then the brothers this, then oh, the brother I think is something at that hospital that she's at, that um that facility. And I'm like, that's what I mean, like when I said it's ass backwards, because it's it's and I knew like like the cross examinations, like I knew that they were gonna try to, you know, throw darts, but there's so much more than what I think anyone was realizing that there was gonna be, so now everyone's kinda like, okay, I don't have an opinion anymore. No, like that's what I meant, like, okay, where are we going with this? You know?

SPEAKER_01 37:41

Yeah, I mean, it bothered me, which I don't have a right to be bothered, that he sort of got married pretty quick. I mean, you know, I don't know. I mean, I don't know how I would react. I guess it was a couple years, so but still, I mean, you know, she's she's in prison, you know, she's he's sort of taking her side. He's not really against her, I don't think.

SPEAKER_00 38:01

I know, and that's a weird thing. I know.

SPEAKER_01 38:03

That's very weird.

SPEAKER_00 38:04

It's very strange. That's what I mean. This case is very, very strange.

SPEAKER_01 38:09

And the fact that she claims or says that she told him she was having problems by hurting the kids, wouldn't you do something about that? I mean, would you leave your house if your husband told you he was gonna hurt your kids? Absolutely not.

SPEAKER_00 38:22

Jack and I would be gone in five minutes, not even.

SPEAKER_01 38:25

That's what I'm saying. I mean, that that's my point. Why did he not do I mean he should have been more involved? I mean, that's what I think anyway, it bothers me. That he would he would have went out of town a couple times and left her alone with those kids after she told him that. That's crazy.

SPEAKER_00 38:41

So do you do you think that he would ever get charged for negligence now?

SPEAKER_01 38:50

No. No I don't think so. Okay. I mean, no, because if if they were, they would have done it, okay. I mean, the two of them, and they're not even married anymore, they're suing them hospitals, psychiatrists, and everybody. They got a big lawsuit. So all these medical professionals, psych psychiatry or uh psych psych psychoanalysts and psychiatrists, all those people, but most of them are getting sued by by her and him for for for niggas, malpractice. Which is pretty strange. You gotta get on the witness stand and you're testifying on a criminal trial. Everything you say now could be used in a civil case against you, it would be screw up.

SPEAKER_00 39:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:27

So it was pretty intense. And that first psychiatrist, uh Jennifer, whatever her name was, she's so not she appears to be so young and she and she's not she's a clinical psychiatrist. That's different than a forensic psychiatrist. Right. Forensic psychiatrists are trained to testify. She wasn't trained.

SPEAKER_00 39:46

No, and she advertised as she's a br um expert.

SPEAKER_01 39:52

Yeah, and that wasn't a good thing. She'd only been out, she'd only been a a real a a legitimate psych psychiatrist for like a month. Yeah. She was in medical school and residency, but she got licensed like in August. She sees this woman in September. You know? She didn't seem too much of an expert to me, at least the way she treated her.

SPEAKER_00 40:11

And they they really didn't prepare her. I kind of fell bad.

SPEAKER_01 40:15

I yeah, I was shocked, okay. I would never put a witness on, I don't care what, that was prepared like that. I mean, that's your job as a prosecutor. Your job is to prepare your witnesses to plan what is going to be done. So you we whenever we put on a case, I don't care who it was, if I was putting a witness on as my foot clock direct examination, my partner would act as the defense attorney when we were repairing and do cross-examination. And we were good at cross-examination, so we'd put to our witnesses through the the grill. I mean, we'd run them, we h hit them hard. So they realized when you get into court, that's what it's going to be like. Right. So they're not, you know, blindsided. She was totally blindsided.

SPEAKER_00 40:54

Well, this is why the case is so weird too, like the trial, because they're not helping themselves, you know.

SPEAKER_01 41:00

No, no. The prosecution. Um I mean, I'm just, you know, I shouldn't say I'm just not totally impressed with their presentation, you know, no the way they've done this case. And, you know, I don't know. Uh I I think they've called way too many witnesses, which is ridiculous. I mean, you don't need to call every single policeman. I mean, they're trying to dirty her up and make, come on, just make the point. This is what happened. You put the hopper on the game first, and then the one that brought him to the hospital. You don't need everyone that that you're piling on, and it's not working, see, because the longer she sits there in that wheelchair and the jurors look at her, the lon the more sympathy she's gonna get because of that, because she's in a wheelchair and she can't walk anymore. So she's got that in a weird way going for her because there's a certain element. Sympathy, and you know, in a jury, there's 12 jurors. We says there are 18 because there's six alternates. But when it comes down to liberations, there could easily be someone will hang to a jury. Someone will think, no, I can't convict her because look at her state and all the I've been telling you, I I just don't see it. I I see it the best, the press usually get a hung jury. I don't think they'll get a flat-out conviction, but I could be wrong.

SPEAKER_00 42:13

So that's what I was gonna ask you. Do you think so she you don't think they'll send her to prison? They don't have death penalty there, right?

SPEAKER_01 42:20

No. She would go have to go to a prison, but she'd have to be put in a special unit in a prison for people with her condition. I mean, it still would be no trip to Hollywood. I mean, a mental institution would be better for her, but see, the mental institution, you get sentenced to say you're found not guilty, but you don't go free. Now they can send you to a mental institution, and the judge, that judge or some judge would ultimately decide when she could come out. So remember the guy that shot President Reagan, I think he served for almost 40 years in a mental institution. So there's no guarantees how long it'd take for her to come out if she goes in there.

unknown 42:56

Okay. I mean, it's still better for a person to be there than prison.

SPEAKER_01 43:02

I mean, because if she goes to prison, I think she he judge has to give her life. She's gonna I think that's a mandatory triple murder. I mean, she would get life. Whereas in a middle institution, I mean, she can get out whatever whatever the the she the re the hospital that she's put in, the metal hospital state, they would they give reports to the judge pretty frequently about her condition. If they rule she's fine and she doesn't show any symptoms, he can let her go. I mean, he can let her go in two, three, four, five years. That's it. In fact, I don't think he can really hold her. I mean, if she continuously gets reports that she's okay and she's fine, she's kind of over a condition. So she's been in jail for what? Four years. Almost yeah, three and a half years. So, you know, she hasn't been taking any of those drugs because they don't give you that stuff in prison unless it's fucked real serious. So I think if she gets If he they find her not guilty because of this insanity, whatever it is, I don't think she'll be in there that long. I think she'll get up pretty quick. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:08

But at that point, like what I mean, if I was her, I would just try find a way to off myself because I mean you you your babies are gone. I mean, what what a terrible I mean, how can you ever start life over?

SPEAKER_01 44:20

Yeah, why be spared see she must be uh continually watched because you would wonder why did she she try to kill herself, she says, after the incident murders. Why would she try to kill herself again? I mean, if she can. If you're dad I mean, I'd be freaked out if I did that. I don't care what the reason is. But I was saying she's probably under surveillance twenty-four-seven, wherever she's been ill. Because they don't want that to happen. They don't want her to commit suicide and they don't get to put the show on.

SPEAKER_00 44:48

Yeah, they don't get to have the trial.

SPEAKER_01 44:51

Right. No, so so she's she'll she's been watched continually, so if she could, she might, but she can't. See, there's no way that she can do it to herself now.

SPEAKER_00 45:02

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 45:03

No.

SPEAKER_00 45:04

I I'll be tragic.

SPEAKER_01 45:06

It's tragic all the way around.

SPEAKER_00 45:08

Oh God, it's just a hor I mean, any I just, you know, even before, you know, it took my husband and I, you know, we were married twelve years before we got um pregnant. It took us a long time to get pregnant. And uh even before I had Jack, I I just when it comes to kids, you know, have you heard kids, animals, elderly people that for me there's just you're just sick, you know, there's just something not right. And um the more and more the details, I mean, I find myself just randomly crying when I see this stuff on TikTok. I'm just like, oh my god, I cannot look at this. Because uh, you know, my son will be a year and you know, let's just say a week, a little less than a week. And uh Oh, really?

SPEAKER_02 45:51

Oh, congratulations.

SPEAKER_00 45:52

Thank you. Yeah, I had him later. I'll be 38. So, um, my one and only.

SPEAKER_01 45:56

Oh, that's great. Yeah, so he My daughter had her first child at about see 30, yeah, 38.

SPEAKER_00 46:03

Did she? How many more did she have?

SPEAKER_01 46:06

She had her daughter, which is my granddaughter, and then she had a second little girl four months ago.

SPEAKER_00 46:12

Oh, is she done now?

SPEAKER_01 46:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:14

Oh, good for her.

SPEAKER_01 46:18

My granddaughter, five, four, three, and four months.

SPEAKER_00 46:20

So Oh, I love it. Good, good for you guys. I love that. But you know, now even looking at those little babies. You know, but as a mom, like, and postpartum, it is everybody goes through it in a different way, right? But how can you strangle your children for five, six minutes? Oh god, oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 46:43

One at a time. I mean, somebody I mean, you think the one whoever she's doing first, the other one would try to get away.

SPEAKER_00 46:52

Oh, Jesus. I get I can't I just see it happening. You know, and then that's like the you know, and everybody's all about the trial, but like, you know, a lot of us are over here, like, you know, say their names though. The the poor like the kids. That's the last thing those children seen was their mother over that stream. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:12

Yes, yes. So that don't kill yourself, that jury's thinking about that too. They won't they won't think about that, and that'll be brought up. I mean, if I'm the prosecutor, that's exactly what I would say. You know, I mean, you're telling me four five minutes, that's 15 minutes, you at some point don't realize what you're doing, that you had to keep going and you had to grab these things. I mean, it's like, I mean, I I I can argue it both ways. I mean, I I could. Because I mean, you know, but I still think I don't care who the prosecutor is, it's gonna be tough to get a conviction because there's people gonna be sympathetic because you know, the kids are gone, they have no voice, they can't say anything, you know. And so it's that's one thing. Sometimes victims are forgotten, you know. It's all about the defendant and the case and the prosecutors, and they forget there's somebody no longer alive.

SPEAKER_02 48:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:03

People are not alive. And and that's one thing as a prosecutor, you have to keep that in front of people's faces so they understand what they're really dealing with. You know, that this isn't a a a a true crime or uh a novel. This is real. Yeah you know, somebody really did something that affected other people. But I'm just saying, what when you look at the testimony, and and you know, I 25 years ago, there'd be no question she'd be convicted. But society's changed, you know. I mean, people have I mean, it's just a different world. Uh I just think all this this testimony about the negligence on the part of the the psychiatric staff and people, I think, you know, that that that's gonna that's gonna sit with some people. They're gonna buy into it because they're not seeing those kids anymore. Now they're gonna get the photos. They're gonna get the photos of those children from their autopsy, so they're gonna look at them. And I just don't know if there'll be I don't I just can't see a unanimous verdict either way in this case. Because I just think somebody on one side is gonna say, I'm not letting her go, and somebody else says, I'm not convicted or so. There you go. That's a hung jury. And I don't know what they would do then.

unknown 49:11

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 49:12

That would be I mean that that that's I think I'm not gonna bet on it, but I think that's what might happen. That they'll have a hung jury, and I think they know that too. And the defense attorney wants that. If that he wants at least a hung jury, because of the state is in a different position, you know. Oftentimes now, I think they might try to try her again. But there's so many witnesses have already testified, you know what they're gonna say, you can prepare even better as a defense attorney. So, you know, sometimes they'll work a deal out. I don't know what the deal could be, but something I I don't I can't even imagine what they can work out. But hard jury puts you as a prosecutor in a sort of an awkward position to have to go do it again.

SPEAKER_00 49:53

Yeah, I think she's kind of been trained to play it off because she was like really staring at the jury, you know.

SPEAKER_01 49:59

Yep, yep, yep. And I was just like, Yeah, but there's no question, this woman is is not mentally ill right now. I mean, she knows what's going on, she knows what's at stake, and she sits she sits there like she's catatonic, you know, like she you know, just staring. And sometimes she looks over, but but I'm telling you, she's contributing because that attorney, that defense attorney knows a lot of stuff that he couldn't know without her telling him.

SPEAKER_00 50:21

So Yeah, and she always she barely blinks.

SPEAKER_01 50:25

Yeah, no, I'm saying she's like she's in a trance almost.

SPEAKER_00 50:29

Yeah, that's weird.

SPEAKER_01 50:30

But then see, see, that that's the problem with that. See, the jury is think is thinking, was she really mentally ill? Well, they're saying she was, but was it enough to push her over the edge to this level? And they look at her, and there's somebody gonna say, Well, look at how she looked, and somebody's going, Yeah, that's all fake. So you're gonna have two sides of this.

SPEAKER_00 50:48

I honestly think she was overwhelmed, she was drowning. I think she had a really hard time with postpartum. I don't think he helped her a lot, and I don't think she wanted to be a mom.

SPEAKER_01 50:58

Well, I I think the kids just pushed her over the edge at one point. She talked about how how the one son, uh the middle one. Uh Dawson.

SPEAKER_00 51:08

Dawson, yep.

SPEAKER_01 51:09

Yeah. I mean, she sometimes she couldn't deal with him, you know. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I still can't.

SPEAKER_00 51:16

And that's that's why I think she I think she would have probably wanted to kill him and not the other two, but in her head, she she said, I'm out of here and there I'm taking them with me.

SPEAKER_01 51:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:30

But but did she really try to kill herself or did she not? I mean, I don't know, you know?

SPEAKER_01 51:35

I don't know if she did that good of a job. She's a nurse, so she's trained. If you're a nurse, you know not to cut your arm that way she did. You cut it up and down from the your palm up to your elbow. You don't cut across. That's not the way you do it. People that know how to kill, you cut your you cut your arm like like uh I guess you say vertically, not horizontally across the wrist. You go up, because that really severs everything.

SPEAKER_02 51:58

Right.

SPEAKER_01 51:59

Then you really do that. And you know, I don't if she didn't dive out the window. There's no way sure he she couldn't get out the window by diving. She had to get up there and sit herself up and jump. I mean, she didn't just fall out. And and there's testimony, I guess, that there may be blood on the sill, so she might have uh grabbed it as it was going down. So you say, Well, was it was she really? But I mean, I don't know who jumps out of a window either, 20 feet. That's another weird thing.

SPEAKER_00 52:26

Yeah, because you you the odds are you're not gonna die.

SPEAKER_01 52:31

Well, you you wouldn't think it, right? I mean, you might break your legs, but I think she just hit the wrong way. She, you know, broke her back, so basically. And I don't know. Like I said, I I just don't know. I mean, because I don't know if there's any evidence that whatever she's uh they're gonna have to have evidence of whatever was in her bloodstream at the time would be analyzed. Was there anything in there that would have uh made this take place or something, or was it a a big amalgamation of everything? I don't know. I mean, it's a very different kind of case, I'll say that.

SPEAKER_00 53:07

I I'm you know, I was back and forth with you two, but I I kind of feel like this was premeditated on her part.

SPEAKER_01 53:14

Well, there's stuff to I mean, as a prosecutor, I could argue that, and I did. I mean, you I could you would say, well, first of all, folks, uh you've using common sense. Who who takes bands that they use for exercise, all different colors? She had to have those in advance already laid out somewhere. And how did she get each child to go downstairs one at a time? She could bring them all to say something. So drugged them. The baby couldn't even walk. So she had to take one at a time and kill them one at a time.

SPEAKER_00 53:42

I think the kids had drugs in their system too, didn't they?

SPEAKER_01 53:46

I don't know that they could have.

SPEAKER_00 53:49

Now, did you did you see the part where hers was they her drugs were crushed, her medication was crushed in her into her drink? Yep. I mean, she's a nurse.

SPEAKER_01 53:58

I mean, she knew what she was doing, so I Well, like I said, the fact that over the course of it it would have taken by the time she took each other 15 to 20 minutes to actually kill him. And she had to do this when he was gone. Yeah. So I mean But she had a phone call in the midst of all this and she seemed fine.

SPEAKER_00 54:17

I mean He said she sounded busy. Like she was giving like she thought maybe but then the bath. But then the thing with the chicken nuggets on the table, but then they weren't there. I don't know. It's just so weird. I just I don't know. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 54:32

I just don't understand how she got them all in that basement. That's she had to carry the youngest one herself because the kid couldn't walk as a lady monster.

SPEAKER_00 54:39

But was the baby already in the basement? Was he sleeping?

SPEAKER_01 54:43

Well, I why would you put your baby in the basement?

SPEAKER_00 54:46

Because if it was I mean, if that's what she w All I know, like, look, I have a friend that committed suicide, okay, and it still haunts me. And it happened about ten years ago. And um I will say this that when people before they commit suicide or before they do something really, really bad, it's always the happiest day that they've had.

SPEAKER_02 55:08

Really?

SPEAKER_00 55:09

And they it's usually like you would never know, like you look now when in hindsight, when you look back, you're like, oh wow, there's a few signs here, whatever. Yeah, yeah. But he had said that this was the best she has been in a while, and she sounded fine. And it's like it's almost like she made peace with it. So the whole point of saying that is like was because just having a small child, right? And your granddaughter four months, right? Mine's a lot well, almost a year. Um, she could have set something up in the basement because they did have from pictures that I've seen, they did have um like a little playroom down there for the kids. So maybe she had put him down there in his car seat or his stroller and he was already sleeping. But her bedroom door, supposedly, according to the ex-husband, was locked.

SPEAKER_02 56:00

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 56:01

But but then he didn't he didn't go look for the kids. He went outside to her.

SPEAKER_01 56:07

The whole thing is ridiculous. Would you somebody be doing something? Right. I mean, none of it makes sense. But in in the in the what was happening, who knows? I mean, he's comes home and there's her on the ground. I mean, then nobody's answering. And I don't even know how did he know to go outside and look for her.

SPEAKER_00 56:25

I know. That's where I I'm like, well, how did he know to go outside? Was she screaming? But then they said her whole um um like throat was crushed. That sh she couldn't talk. That's why she had a whiteboard at the hospital.

SPEAKER_01 56:41

Oh, that's right. Okay, okay. But see, the thing is, now I remember he was calling for the kids. He went upstairs to see if they're in the bed, but then he went to her room and was locked. That's how he found her, because the window was open, then he saw her on the ground.

SPEAKER_00 56:53

Oh, that's right. You're right. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 56:55

Yeah, but yeah, that's the chain of events. But I still where's the kids? I mean, she hasn't tells, they're in the basement. Oh Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:06

Yeah. I don't know. But then he said his wi-fi was screwed up and it took him like ten minutes to call 911, and then it's like, dude, you're a Microsoft guy. But in the t in that time frame, he was probably so I mean, who knows what would go through your mind, right?

SPEAKER_01 57:22

If you went downstairs and found your child with a with an exercise uh uh band around her neck, dead, I mean, are you kidding me?

SPEAKER_00 57:32

I'm killing whoever else is in the house.

SPEAKER_01 57:34

Well, that's my point.

SPEAKER_00 57:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:37

I mean, how could you not be upset at her? But I guess the phone call was pretty horrific when he called because he finally got through with the police. You know, they played it for the jury, but they didn't let anybody else hear it.

SPEAKER_00 57:49

But then the other the women now are like, well, why did he say she killed the effing kids and not she effing killed the kids?

SPEAKER_01 57:57

Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. I know.

SPEAKER_00 57:59

But it's like, well, the guy, I mean, Jesus, like who who knows how someone's gonna react?

SPEAKER_01 58:04

I mean Yeah, I mean, it's something you can never even imagine. But but my my biggest problem with with the defense is how did she take five minutes each? I mean, how did she plan this? She had to know how long it would take him to go where he was going. That she had to already know in advance how long it was gonna take to kill each of these children. She had to know. Because it was too perfectly timed. That's what I would argue. Think about it. He went to the store, then he went to some restaurant that he normally doesn't go to, and it took what 23, 24 minutes? What took 15 at least to kill those kids. So she didn't give her much. I mean, she he had to walk out of the door and she had to start right then. The minute he left, she had to go for it.

SPEAKER_00 58:45

Well, that that's that's the weirdest thing because I would say, now, were these kids already dead before, but then the coroner would have known that, and then the baby was still alive, but he also works from home. So it you know what I mean? It's just such a weird case.

SPEAKER_01 59:01

Yeah, it is. There's a lot of stuff that doesn't make a lot of sense, and that's what makes people wonder, and that's how the conspiracy stores stuff starts, because some of it just doesn't make sense.

SPEAKER_00 59:11

Well, something about that Apple watch, though. Did you see him, the um her would be the uh defense?

SPEAKER_01 59:18

Now why do they keep bringing that up? I don't even know yet.

SPEAKER_00 59:20

Because I think he has something. I think he has something up his sleeve, and I think he's not shotgunning it right now. Like he's he's like he's kind of like working everyone up to it and working the judge up to it. Because if he does it too quick, then he you know, you shoot too quick, you lose your shot.

SPEAKER_01 59:38

So No, that's true. There's a dish of tactics involved. This guy's this guy's a good lawyer.

SPEAKER_00 59:43

Yeah, I think he has something. I I do. I don't know if it's gonna change like the array of events or whatever, but I know I feel like he truly has something on the ex-husband.

SPEAKER_01 59:53

He brings it up so many times. He talks about the bedstand.

SPEAKER_00 59:56

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 59:56

Every police officer, did you go? No. Why? I mean, and and and then he brings it, says about this ample watch.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:03

Yeah, he's he's gotta have something on him.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:06

Oh, he does. I'm sure he does, because he's he's he's very skillful. He knows he knows strategy. I mean, he's he's good. You know, like it or not, he's good.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:16

So I wonder when how long how much longer you think this trial will go on for?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:21

Two weeks at least. Two weeks. Only because these these experts take a long time. I mean, you put them on the witness stand, they have to go through their background, their history, then they have to talk about the nature of the case, and they have to go into their they probably interviewed her six to eight hours, and they have to go through the report, and the other side gets a cross-examination. I mean, a psychiatric witness that I've ever had is probably three and a half for three hours on direct and maybe the same on quest. So that's a whole day for one. And they've got four or five at least. He's got two or three. They got three, besides the ones they put on. Because that woman is not a she's not a forensic psychiatrist, she's a clinical. So she she was just testifying what she did in the case. But they're gonna have somebody get up there now and say, I went over everything, and I'm gonna tell you right now, my opinion is she knew what she was doing. That's what the state will have. That's not that woman. That woman that testified, that young woman, that she didn't give an opinion. See, she didn't give an opinion whether at that moment she had the capacity to stop herself. She didn't say that. She just said leading up to that, they'll have a psychiatrist or more than one who's gonna say she did have the ability, and that did not was not the you know, she she knew what she was doing. Don't don't try to establish it. And though a defense attorney will have people that said, because of the nature of all these drugs, this is what happens. And I, in my opinion, she didn't know what she was doing. And they'll have to go back and forth.

unknown 1:01:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:46

I mean, this will go on. I mean, right now, what is it, Tuesday or whatever it is, this will go on. The state's case will probably not be finished early next week. And then he's gotta do all his witnesses, which are gonna be a long time too. So I would say two weeks, maybe ten days, something like that. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:06

You know, I that's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:08

Oh, and it gets to be so labor laborious. Oh my god. Even as a prosecutor, as a trailer, you gotta sit there when you put your psychiatrist on, and you gotta listen to this. I mean, you've heard it a million times, and then you gotta he you gotta put them on and question them, and then you know what's gonna happen, you know what they're gonna ask them, and then you gotta get back up and re-direct and go try to fix that. I mean, it gets to be like, oh man.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:32

I know that poor guy's tired, you can tell.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:36

What?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:36

That guy, they're her lawyer, he's tired.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:40

Oh, the guy's not that young guy. I mean, he's he's you know, when you could be that's just a lot of stress on the guy, too. I'm surprised at his age he's doing something disintense. I mean, I really am because it takes so much out of you. I mean, when I was young, he used to take a lot out of me. But man, that's tough. He's gotta be in pretty good condition because you don't need that guy to have a heart attack in the middle of a trial.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:03

Well, that's why I think he n he has something for her because I think that's why he took it on. And I think her her mom and her dad and her sister are paying for all this.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:15

Oh, they have to. Yeah. I mean, the guy's been involved since day one, I think right after she got put in the hospital, he was there.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:22

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:23

Which is which is an advantage because the guy knows everything that's happened since she's been arrested, so he has comebacks for everything, you know. I mean, you they brought up the fact that she said, Do you think I need a lawyer? And they made a big deal out of that. Well, here he was. He was there. Well, she thought that. So, I mean, she has every right to, of course, but you know, if I if I'm in a hospital room and there's cops everywhere, I'm like a little concerned myself. Like, what did I do, you know?

SPEAKER_02 1:03:49

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:50

I mean, really?

unknown 1:03:52

Why are they here all the time?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:53

Why why are they right out the door? I mean, you know, you put it doesn't take much to put that together in your mind that there's a serious problem you got. But I don't know what to say. I I just uh it it's interesting in a way, but it's boring in a way, okay? Oh I mean, I don't know what to say.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:10

Yeah, that is.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:10

It just gets so old, man. It just goes on and on and on.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:18

Oh well, we'll have to um come back to this when it's all done. I would love to have you back on.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:26

Yeah, I mean, I'd be I'm more than happy to because you you you you're on top of this stuff, and I'd love to talk to you about it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:34

You are definitely the guy and want back on.

Where To Find Greg And His Books

SPEAKER_00 1:04:36

Now, how can people find you, Greg? Like you got you said you're on Instagram.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:42

Yeah, I'm on Instagram now. I have a website.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:44

Okay, and what is the website?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:46

My mother, my mother gave me a name which people don't know how to spell right, but it's probably because it's not right. But my first name is Greg G-R-E-G-G with two G's, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:55

I noticed that. Yeah, when I was messaging you. I'm like, oh, this is this is fun. Two G's.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:00

Yeah, my mother wanted to make life difficult because everybody spelled with one, and she taught me as a child, if people spell your name Bob Greggy, you make sure you tell them how it's spelled, like, oh man. Come up with some homework in second grade, and then we'll the teacher will write with one G. And then my mother, you know, she didn't even go to the school. I mean, she was insane about this stuff this name. But anyway, so my my website is Greg Owen, G-R-E-G-G-O-W-E-N 26 T H. Greg Owen26, because I worked at 26thcalifornia.com. So on my website you can see information about my past and pictures of me in the band and all kinds of stuff, and when I was appointed by Richard D. Lee to be the chief of gangs. And a lot of the videos I've done, it's all on there, and then my Instagram and all my social media is GregOwen26th. All the same.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:48

Yeah, that's awesome, you guys. So, yep, so remember Gregwood2G's, GregOwen26.com. Yep. And you can see his whole his whole background and his career and his rock star and his rock star days.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:03

Our our book, Convergence, is available on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, every every major thing. And audio the audiobook is interesting because the audiobook is the whole story, but at the end, when we're actually giving the close of the arguments, I usually give my argument that I gave right on my transcript. I say it right as if I was in court.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:20

You know what?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:21

Listen, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:22

I'm gonna get I'm gonna have my husband go to Barnes and Noble and get me this book. So he's always trying to find stuff to do when I'm because I work on the weekends now, and then I'm home during the week so that he can work. Um, and then uh he's always finding like little fun things to go do with Jack. So I'm gonna put this on his list to do that I need this convergence book, and then he's probably gonna want to read it first because he reads very fast.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:47

Listen, you just you just get me your address and you'll get an autograph hardcover copy of the book. Don't worry about going by it. I'll send it my, I'll get it set out tomorrow.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:56

Oh, oh, I'm so excited. You're gonna even sign it for me and everything?

SPEAKER_02 1:07:01

Of course.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:02

Of course. Oh, great. Thank you so much. I'm really looking forward. Well, I'm looking forward to this book.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:09

You I've you have my number, so just send me your address and I'll get it out to you.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:13

Yeah, that's awesome. Because my husband loves to read, and then my mother-in-law loves to read too, so we will be passing this book around. And you guys, again, it's Convergence by Greg Owen.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:23

Yep, and Jonathan Dixon.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:25

Jonathan Dixon, yep, right here. So yeah, Greg with two G's. Yep, you got it.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:30

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:31

Cool. Well, I always want to make sure that everybody knows how to find you. And um thank you. Yeah. Hey, thank you so much for coming on. I you're definitely one that I I have to have come back on here. Um, I definitely want to talk Lindsay Clancy. Yep. And anything else that you have, and I would just love to hear it.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:55

Okay, I I look forward to it.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:57

And I will send you my address because I'm really looking forward to your book.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:01

Please do, because you do a great job, and I really enjoyed this a lot.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:04

Oh, well, thank you, Greg, and I will be talking to you soon.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:08

Thank you, Melissa. Appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:10

I appreciate you. Bye-bye. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:12

Okay, bye-bye.